Group Abstract Group Abstract

Message Boards Message Boards

2
|
11.2K Views
|
9 Replies
|
9 Total Likes
View groups...
Share
Share this post:

Causal invariance definition issue

There appears to be a mistake in the definition of causal invariance (Some Quantum Mechanical Properties of the Wolfram Model):

Definition 22. A multiway system is “causal invariant” if and only if the causal networks associated with all paths through the multiway system are (eventually) isomorphic as directed, acyclic graphs.

Consider a pair of string substitution rules A->AB, A->AC with the starting string "A". At each step of the evolution we can choose whether we generate B or C, and the multiway graph for this rule looks like a binary tree. A causal graph for any update order will always look like a single chain, enter image description here, and therefore, all paths are isomorphic as directed, acyclic graphs, and the system must be causally invariant according to the definition. On the other hand, the system is not confluent (Gorard says that confluence is a necessary condition for causal invariance in his presentations), and appears to contradict the whole intuition of a causally invariant system, that was built before that. A definition, corresponding to the intent of causal invariance should look more like this:

"A multiway system is “causal invariant” if and only if the causal networks associated with all paths through the multiway system are (eventually) identical."

It would help though to clarify what does it mean that two causal graphs are "identical" (isomorphism is necessary, but, clearly, not sufficient).

Does this look correct?

POSTED BY: Pavlo Bulanchuk
9 Replies

Concerning think you are right, confluence is not a necessary condition for causal invariance. On the same topic, see also this bulletin by Max Piskunov, where he shows that it isn't even a sufficient condition.

POSTED BY: Ruggero Valli

By the way, Tommaso Bolognesi has several interesting papers about causality in a framework rather similar to the Wolfram Model. For example: Algorithmic Causal Sets for a Computational Spacetime

POSTED BY: Pavlo Bulanchuk

I am confused as well, because even in the paper Algorithmic Causal Sets and the Wolfram Model Gorard states:

global confluence is a necessary (though not sufficient) condition for causal invariance, which can easily be proved by strong induction on the set of updating events.

After having given a definition of causal invariance similar to the one you quoted. And I think that this last paper came out about a week later than Piskunov's bulletin, therefore I must believe that Gorard is still convinced of his statement.

I am sure he has good reasons to believe that global confluence is a necessary condition for causal invariance, but this fact only makes my confusion worse.

POSTED BY: Ruggero Valli

Thanks for the bulletin. I was a bit confused by Gorard's technical introduction: https://youtu.be/BV3a0PzNNqE (at 25:11). Does it mean, I should understand causal invariance, as given by the definition? (In other words, there are no mistakes in the definition)

POSTED BY: Pavlo Bulanchuk
POSTED BY: Ruggero Valli

Question:

Should I consider the system in the post to be causally invariant?

Answer (personal opinion): What is important is to be consistent with yourself. After you obtain some interesting results, then you compare your approach with other people's approaches and you decide whether or not to modify your definitions. In new scientific fields, there is always diversity concerning the definitions. When consensus is reached, it is too late: the subject is not new anymore.

Reply to this discussion
Community posts can be styled and formatted using the Markdown syntax.
Reply Preview
Attachments
Remove
or Discard