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Apply all the rules at the same time? How is it possible?

POSTED BY: Ruggero Valli
8 Replies
Posted 4 years ago

I'm no expert on this, but maybe sharing my own thoughts gives you some new ideas at least.

The missing part here is, I think, the arrow of time. Your description is just so coarse-grained that it practically hides it. The simplest way to point out the "devil in the details" in this case is perhaps to give you an example of a reversible setup with an arrow of time.

One way to set this up is to pick a rule in which the RHS has one or more parts that will match the LHS pattern. For example, consider a rule (1,2)(1,3)->(1,2)(1,4)(2,4)(3,4) and its inverse (1,2)(1,4)(2,4)(3,4)->(1,2)(1,3). This setup is reversible. However, as every possible sequence of events is realized, and as we keep sampling from them, there will eventually be increasingly more locations on which to apply the rule in one direction as compared to the other direction. This imbalance will emerge whether you start from (1,1)(1,1), a random initial graph, or a complete graph.

Now, you might argue that this statistical arrow of time is not enough, because every state is still in fact realized in one step. One answer might be that the part of the system that has the arrow of time is the only part in which evolution, life etc. is possible. Therefore, what happens outside of that part is just irrelevant to us who must exist (be spread out) inside the arrow.

This last point might also be the reason why it is possible - and often useful - to introduce some fundamental principles in our models. If they are picked right, they will effectively limit the number of possible rules without affecting the part in which we live - the observed laws of physics. As an example, excluding the inverse part of my first example would give a good approximation of the system with less computational effort.

POSTED BY: Mika Suominen

Thank you for your input. I realize that I may have explained myself poorly. I am not arguing that no multiway system has an arrow of time, of course. Your example is clear in this regard, it features an obvious arrow of time, I am not arguing against that.

I am saying that there is a class of systems, that I called "complete multiway systems" or "multiway systems with a complete set of rules", for which after a few steps the arrow of time necessarily ceases to exist.

I am also claiming that a universe where every possible rule can be applied (such as the one referred to by Wolfram) is a complete multiway system, and therefore it may not have an arrow of time and may not describe our own universe.

While writing this, I realized that in my previous post I defined a "complete set of rules", but I didn't give a definition of "complete multiway system". I thought that it could be inferred from the context, but this may instead be a source of misunderstanding. I will define the concept here:

definition: complete multiway system

Consider a multiway system that evolves from some initial conditions through the application of a set of rules $\mathcal{R}$. Let $C$ be the set of all possible hypergraphs that are reached by the multiway system during its evolution. The multiway system is complete iff $\mathcal{R} = \mathcal{R}_C$, i.e. if the set of rules used is a complete set of rules of $C$.

In other words, the rules must be able to go from every element in $C$ to every other element, and at the same time, the application of a rule to an element of $C$ always returns another element of $C$.

A couple of examples made with string substitution systems:

  • The set of rules $\mathcal{R} = \{a \rightarrow b, b \rightarrow a\}$ is a complete set of rules of $C = \{a,b\}$. Evolving from the initial condition $\{a\}$ generates a complete multiway system.

  • The set of rules $\mathcal{R} = \{a \rightarrow b, b \rightarrow a, a \rightarrow c\}$ is still a complete set of rules of $C = \{a,b\}$. But this time, evolving from the initial condition $a$ leads to the state $c \notin C $ and therefore the multiway system is not complete.

Some less trivial examples:

  • Consider set of integer numbers $\mathbb{Z}$ coupled with the set of rules $\{\text{add}_i \forall i \in \mathbb{Z}\}$ that add an integer number, i.e. $\text{add}_i: n \rightarrow n+i$. Starting from some integer number as initial condition you obtain a complete multiway system.

  • The set of all possible planar graphs, coupled with all the possible rules that preserve planarity. This too generates complete multiway systems.

I hope it is now clear why your example is not a complete multiway system and therefore is not subject to the theorem I proved in the previous post.

I hope it is also clear why the system with all possible rules of which Wolfram speaks is indeed a complete multiway system and therefore the theorem applies.

POSTED BY: Ruggero Valli
Posted 4 years ago
POSTED BY: Updating Name

This discussion with you is surely very stimulating, you have found something I hadn't considered, and the prospects are very exciting.
I thought about your counterexample, but I don't think it is a complete system, because the rules given are able to go from (1,1) to (1,2) and (1,1) (as you pointed out), but if you start from (1,2), you can only go to (1,1). This means that there is no rule able to link (1,2) to itself. Adding this rule manually would freeze the system.

Anyway even if this examples may not be perfect, I can finally see your point. The next counterexample you would probably give would be something like the following:

Rules:
{{1, 2}, {3, 2}} -> {{1, 2}, {3, 2}},
{{1, 2}, {3, 2}} -> {{1, 2}, {2, 3}},
{{1, 2}, {2, 3}} -> {{1, 2}, {2, 3}},
{{1, 2}, {2, 3}} -> {{1, 2}, {3, 2}}

Initial Condition: {{{1, 2}, {3, 2}}}

Which should generate a multiway graph like this: multiway evolution graph

Since there are two ways to apply the rule {{1, 2}, {3, 2}} -> {{1, 2}, {2, 3}} to the state {{1, 2}, {3, 2}}, I have drawn two links. Now, the issue is subtle, because the two links technically represent the same update event. There are then two possible interpretations:

  • It may be that the double link is just redundant information. The physics of the system is described by the fact that there is an update event and it doesn't matter how many redundant links represent the event. If this interpretation is correct, the system is frozen, the theorem holds, and I am confident that it holds in every case.

  • If instead the double link carries a physical meaning (something like doubling the probability of the event), then you are right. Applying every possible rule at the same time does generate a system with an arrow of time, and all the relevant information is encoded in the number of ways a rule can be applied to go from a state to another. (This gives me a nice idea, but it deserves another post)

The only way to decide between these two options is to know how to calculate path weights in the wolfram model in order to reproduce quantum mechanics. I think that Jonathan Gorard has worked on the issue, but honestly I couldn't understand what solution he may have found.

If you can tell me more about it, I would really appreciate it.

POSTED BY: Ruggero Valli
Posted 4 years ago

Actually, if you add the rules (1,1)->(1,1) and (1,2)->(1,2) into my example, the imbalance increases. You might have forgotten that the RHS is a pattern too. So, when the rule (1,2)->(1,2) matches the (1,1), the outcome is (1,1) not (1,2). I made you a little sketch from which you can see all the possible outcomes.

As for your own example, I think it doesn't have an arrow time, because not all four rules match your initial condition as you have indicated in your diagram. The relative directions of the two edges matter here. That said, the more complicated these setups get, the more my intuition fails me, so I urge you to simulate the system and actually count the paths.

And yes, in Wolfram models the magnitude of the quantum amplitude is associated with path weights for geodesics in the multiway graph. So basically it is path counting according to your second interpretation.

I encourage you to read these technical papers if you haven't already.

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POSTED BY: Mika Suominen
Posted 4 years ago

Actually I now get your point of there being two ways to apply one rules. That's right.

POSTED BY: Mika Suominen

I did read the technical papers some time ago, but I couldn't find a satisfactory explanation of how to calculate path weights.

I will express my concern about the way to calculate the path weights in another post, for clarity. If you have any insight, feel free to comment on that, I would much appreciate it since it has been some time now that I have been thinking about the issue of path weights (since this post, at least).

All I was saying in my previous comment is that until we have a definite method to calculate the complex amplitudes of the states in a mutiway graph, we are not able to choose between the two alternative interpretations that I gave.

POSTED BY: Ruggero Valli
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