My thoughts on this topic, besides that it should recieve more public discussion, are twofold. First, I am not sure whether I will buy Mathematica once I exit academia. As long as I have a 'free' license though, I'm hooked. I think both mathematics and computer science students have a hard time approaching MMA even though it has tremendous potential to benefit both kinds of people†. I like to tell them that MMA is the worlds best software rapid prototyping tool; or when I'm being cynical, that MMA is both good for nothing and good at literally everything††. Frivolous yet powerful things are often the most compelling and fun... Second, can MMA ever have a practical use†††? I think besides small niches, there is exactly one possibility. I haven't played with it's C code generation very much, but it seems like it's mainly limited to producing 'zombie routines' that must hook into a kernel. The symbolic nature of WL admits, for instance, a search over all possible algorithms to achieve a task. I think a richer library of code generation tools/examples plus an expanded code generation interface (i.e. x11 calls, various windows dlls; think of existing gpu and ffmpeg functionality) could start to make WL useful for 'actual code development'. †In many lower division math classes, the entirety of homework can be automated in MMA. Document scanning, equation parsing, equation solving with steps, typesetting and printing. Literally the whole process: it's a thing of beauty. Applied computer science students, once relieved of worrying about the nontrivial trivialities of modern software, can appreciate the beauty of theory. ††Good for nothing in that it's useless for producing anything dynamic (i.e. production software), and good for everything in that it's capabilities are wiiiidespread and richly interconnected and as a result can produce amazing static visualizations, sounds, videos etc. Most academic publications are entirely static--most of scholarship is just prototyping ideas--such that MMA is the perfect scholarly workbench. †††Again, practical in the sense of providing a directly valuable service--there's some economics word I'm looking for. One might say I'm asking for the well crafted code that goes into the kernel to be freely given up. Instead, I'm suggesting that the symbolic power of WL could be suited for automatedly writing lots of code--I would only be able to give examples if I were to embark on this as a project.
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Adam, I think my view is quite well aligned with yours: Mathematica is unparalleled in its facility for doing mathematics and its interactive nature makes it an outstanding choice for doing research, experimentation and prototyping. Which thereby also makes it an excellent pedagogical tool. If we were to draw a line here and say: "this is what Mathematica is for", would that be so bad? Does its current inadequacy as a platform for developing production systems render it useless? No of course not, not at all. Why should it? After all, I have never heard anyone complain about R's shortcomings in the same area - why should Mathematica be held to a higher standard? Well, I think there may be a couple of reasons (in addition to cost, of course): Firstly, if we dispense with the notion that Mathematica can ever become a platform for doing series development work in a production environment, it means that you have to become highly proficient in at least one other language. And given the scope and complexity of WL, and of the other language one may be obliged to learn (e.g. Python, Java, C# or C++ ), a developer can be forgiven for thinking that they may as well save some time and effort and just focus on the second language, which can do everything (although perhaps not as elegantly as WL, in some areas). Second, Stephen Wolfram's boundless enthusiasm and ambition for the WL leads one to hope that perhaps, eventually, a way will be found to remedy the WL's deficiencies and make it suitable for development of production systems. This is, after all, what Mathworks appears to have achieved with Matlab/Simulink, enabling Matlab code to be translated into production-suitable C++. However, I suspect this is just a pipe dream: there are all kinds of structural reasons why a similar translations capability would be next to impossible to achieve in WL (beyond the very limited extant ability to compile simple functions).
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You make some good points but maybe your premise is wrong. Is Facebook dying?  Google trends might be deceiving. As a frequent WL user I never search for WL! I think the WR is addressing many of the isssues you mentioned:
creating standalone software - Wolfram cloud and WebMathematica --
WL add-on for Excel --
etc.
I do agree that some applications need more finishing and polishing. As an Engineer I appreciate the addition of FEA to Mathemetica but it still needs a little more. The statistics capabilities are tops but why not add design of experiment capability. The presenter notebooks are fantastic if only I could use my custom theme background images like power point can.
Nevertheless Mathematica remains to be my preferred tool to solve complex problems symbolically and numerically, simulate systems and present results.
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Hi Kay, yes indeed it might that the premise is wrong (and in my original post I gave one possible explanation for the downtrend that is innocuous). In this case, however, I think that perhaps the chart for Facebook accurately reflects the slowdown in usage growth of the platform: 
Source: Statista So, while it certainly doesn't mean Facebook is dying yet, it tells us that growth is slowing, which may ultimately mean the same thing. In term of your other points, I think we are saying the same thing: Mathematica has come so far as to be considered excellent in many fields, but seems to lack the last x% of functionality to render it truly outstanding (like design of experiments in statistics, in your example). Perhaps that is by design. A rational argument might be presented along the following lines:
Usage growth Mathematica is slowing. We (i.e WR) can't reverse that trend by providing more functionality to existing users who are already committed to our product. We have to find new users and bring them on board. To do that we have to provide new functionality that will appeal to potential users who haven't tried Mathematica before. That argues in favor of adding more breadth to the product scope, rather than more depth, beyond a certain level.
If this argument were to be accepted, it would mean that WR would be constantly developing functionality in a field up to a certain level - typically below what is required by a professional at the forefront of the field - before abandoning it to focus on developing new functionality in other areas. It seems to me that WR needs a "finish the job" Tzar, whose function would be to identify the critical functionalities missing from key subject matter areas and with the authority to prioritize them for development. In many cases the gaps in necessary functionality could be filled with a handful of new functions. But for some fields (e.g. machine learning) the list would be very long indeed.
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I agree Jonathan and I am also worried about the long term future. In my opinion the following issues have to be addressed first: 1.) Polishing and bug fixing of existing features
- Inconsistencies in TimeSeries
- Bugs and missing features in Machine Learning (Batch Prediction,
GPU-support, Support for Apple Silicon and ML engine, …)
- Performance of Dataset, …
- Improve Developer Tools (update Workbench, support for other editors - might be coming as far as I know)
- Fixing long standing issues in various kinds of functions. Very often when I try something new, I stumble over bugs which give an unpolished impression of the product and the features run out of gas after they are 90% finished.
2.) Generally „Big Data“ and Data Processing has to be handled better
- fast converter / importing routine for numbers, datetime, …
- Out of core storage
- Supporting CSV - Files with „;“ deliminator
- support for secure web sockets wss - Protocol
- => focus on performance for processing huge amount of data
- …
It is really surprising what basic features are missing in this area. Python is far ahead. 3.) Deployment for Production
- as far as I know efforts are made in this area (Application Server) but nothing really useable in an easy way has been released so far
- Licensing has to be pain free, no cloud credits or something like this but permanent license
- Deployment / packaging of an app has to be easy and stable
- Deployment on own infrastructure
- support long running services (eg. Bot)
- Automatic error recovery, restart, logging, …
4.) Predictable bug fixes and releases
- when a bug is reported it is simple unpredictable for a customer if it gets fixed at all and when it gets fixed
- This is especially annoying for regressions. Fixes have to be pushed out quicker.
- I wouldn‘t suggest WL for a critical app in an enterprise because of this
- as long as this is not worked out, WL is only useable for research and experimentation in my opinion
5.) Create and promote examples for real world use cases in enterprises (IoT, Predicitive Maintenance, Big Data, ML Recommendation engine, Trading Bot, …) outside of research and development. Whenever I talk to somebody about MMA nobody thinks about production usage of it. This is probably the hardest part to build up awareness. That said I really like the concept and idea of Mathematica and I want it to last for a long time and be as stable as possible. I enjoy discovering new things and areas where I had no idea about before.
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Jonathan, could you please elaborate on what you mean by:
Anything requiring deployment in production
Does it mean the possibility to convert a Mathematica application so it can be used by a non-MMA user? Or a close to bug free MMA application for a MMA user (a "bug" may reside in the applications algorithm, not necessarily in MMA itself)? Or something else.
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Yes, it would include standalone applications designed for general use and not requiring user familiarity with Mathematica (or possibly even a Mathematica runtime module). In Matlab, for example, applications developed in Matlab can be compiled as standalone C++ applications - a capability that Mathworks has worked long and hard on to produce. But I also mean WL applications that are designed for use in the WL by Mathematica users (e.g. in package form, in a Mathematica notebook). Even here, as I said, it is challenging to produce an application for use in production, where application errors and bugs are very infrequent and remedied relatively easily. In most other languages bugs tends to get ironed out eventually, whereas my experience is that a Mathematica application is much harder to stabilize and often continues to surface problems. This is not always the case: for example my MATH-TWS application (which connects Mathematica to IB TWS) has proved very reliable. However, the great majority of that application is written in C++ and interfaces to the IB TWS api. So it doesn't really count as a true Mathematica application in the sense I mean here.
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I recently spent almost two weeks to install keras(the most star count deep learning framework on github) to my gcp compute engine linux debian machine, keras now bundled with tensorflow2, only can run inside docker container, docker itself is cloud native technology, and I also spent great portion of time to install the gpu support in docker, now everything seems ok to go. The Capability to package app inside docker to run seems the way to go in cloud era.
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Hi Rohit, Thank you for the information. I will take a look at it as soon as there is a trial version available. There was also a presentation about WAS at WWDC 2020. Hopefully it will be easy accessible => pricing information available online without contacting sales, trial license for download, …
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Hi Kapio, I know about redmine. Actually I am a heavy user :) and it is definitely a step in the right direction. Direct contact with QA and sometimes with the developers helps a lot. Still what I would really appreciate is that development cycles are dedicated for bug fix only releases like version 12.1.1. Just polishing the existing stuff. There are also a lot of things fixed in regular releases but because of the new features almost always some regressions end up in the release.
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I think Mathematica is far behind Python. Since I have used Python, I seldom use Mathematica.
Python is much more powerful than Mathematica in data processing.
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Wenguang, I happen to agree with you. But what would you say are the specific data processing capabilities that Mathematica lacks, or is inferior to Python, from your experience? Can you give some examples?
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@Wenguang Wang, maybe it is because you did not have a chance to get to the Mathematica's full potential. I heard a different story. My friend uses Mathematica extensively, data science, analytics, general coding, etc. Then she had to use python for some of her new work tasks. She got very frustrated with how not-smooth the experience was with some workflows and the front end in python. To me hybrid numeric-symbolics and fundamental symbolic nature of Mathematica and its functional style coding architecture seems far superior than python. Some similar user opinions here: https://mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/86058
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I always enjoy using Mathematica for serious and less serious work. Don't want to spend all time on finding the right python libraries and check there vitality etc when most absolutely necessary. I think Mathematica is fantastic and thoroughly enjoy listening to Stephen wolfram's discussions with his outstanding team. I mean I don't know any other cto doing that. I also believe that Wolfram is really looking for "stuff" that is actually useful for his customers. Other languages have also great features and sometimes better syntax but that doesn't matter. The flexibility is incredible. I also enjoy the documentation and all the crosslink to other fields that might be useful. You always learn from it.
No other languages has given me more pleasure programming than this Wolfram language. I once played with low code software mendix in combination with sap software. I didn't really like it. Low code for sure but many many many clicks and different windows.. Not for me.
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100% agree with your comments about Mathematica being enjoyable .... one of the great things about it is that it so easily allows you to "play" with concepts and ideas, and even pick up new ones from completely different fields. In that regard WL is unlike any other language I have programmed in (with the possible exception of APL). There is a great deal of tedium involved in programming in most other languages (although I quite enjoy working in R). That said, I suspect that some of this is because I am not usually trying to build production systems in WL, a process that inevitably involves a lot of humdrum, laborious, house-keeping code. I use Mathematica for R&D, and in that context it's an ideal environment - fast, powerful, broad in scope and highly interactive. And, like many users, I love to dabble in all kinds of interesting topic areas that Mathematica opens up.
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Jonathan, the answer is very simple: "Mathematica is for Stephen Wolfram to do his NKS-stuff on." Other features are put in from time-to-time and as is deemed necessary to make Mathematica sufficiently saleable to support Stephen so he doesn't have to get some other less enjoyable occupation while he pursues NKS. ;-) B
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Your op is conversational/general (i like the content and agree, so i upvoted it) and i wouldn't wonder if it gets deleted. Nothing will come out of it (the discussion, if there is any) other than us writers/readers who agree with you feeling better because we said our piece and got the sore topic off our chest, hopefully without ranting. Anyway… I am in the same boat, having expressed my existential angst for the product from the very start, at the time of registration see the About Me page. "Success is the sum of right decisions." — If the popularity continues to trend downward, more and more senior key figures "turn their backs" ( @Michael, @Paul, @Roman, et al. because of age, capacity, retirement, or ultimately, expiration), and in 15yrs the product is no more than a relic, then that's fate. To me,
$\text{Wolfram L}$ will still be the one and only programming language I am willing to accept; i never gave FREE
$\text{Python}$ a serious or fair chance, because i am stubborn and, erh, i am no programmer (and have no interest in becoming one)! I am no programmer (by profession, by heart, by need, by desire, by whatever) and have no interest in becoming one, also because of my very restricted talents hehe, yet i can write some simple functional code, create updated tables/graphs with a press of a key, and i do enjoy this ability of mine! All thanks to Mathematica. Honestly, I do miss the GUI features of M$ Word, Excel, Corel, Maple but i put up with these shortcomings because my enjoyment of the language is so much stronger. No software package or programming language is perfect or complete but imho Mathematica is the #1 contender in the all-rounder category. Nothing wrong with knowing how to draw maximum use out of a SAK Swiss Army Knife! And best of all, i have access to it all the time:
- on the road: through the Android Wolfram Cloud App, on my phone
- on the road: through the Wolfram Cloud web browser access (phone, computer, inet cafe, etc)
- on the road: through the VNC Cloud access (e.g. on my phone) to my Raspberry Pi at home -> my preferred mobile access
- at home: through the VNC Wi-Fi access (e.g. on my phone) to my Raspberry Pi at home
- at home: through the VNC Wi-Fi access (on my PC) to my Raspberry Pi at home
- at home: through eventual local installations on PC at home
The VNC access is possible only because my Raspberry Pi is non-stop powered by mains 24/7*365, a 2.0 Watts device. Q:
$\text{"So …, What is Mathematica For?"}$ A:
$\text{"Well …, it is For Me! Basta ya."}$
— ©2021 Raspi. hh
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Hi Raspi, in some ways I think you are an ideal Mathematica user - a total convert: MMA with everything! And I get it - it's a wonderful sandpit environment for every kind of experimentation. But in broad terms, my thinking is that this is what Mathematica really is: a means of doing fast research, experimentation and prototyping - but not necessarily for production systems. If you are not a professional developer that probably doesn't matter at all - everything is an experiment, or recreation! But for a professional developer, getting systems into production and making sure they are battle-ready is a critical part of what you do for a living. And its in this context that I see the greatest challenge for Mathematica - making WL applications that are sufficiently bullet-proof to hand over to an end user (rather than, say, a research co-worker). BTW what do you use Raspberry Pi for?
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My use of Raspberry Pi? Mainly for having the alternative mobile access to Mathematica (for mobile coding, or as calculator) and to my personal locally saved Mathematica notebook files. The web browser access and the Android app access are convenient and very good to have but they are not full versions of a Mathematica installation. So through the VNC access (does everyone here know what a VNC access is, oh please?) you're on the road and have access to a full local Mathematica installation, namely the one on your Raspberry Pi sitting at home near the Wi-Fi router. Seriously, this is reason enough and reason alone to buy and setup a Raspberry Pi, and shame on whomever that there is no youtube video showcasing how Mathematica can be used this way on a phone while you're on the road, apart from browser access and Android app access! Shame. The youtube title should be "How To Use Mathematica On Your Phone Through VNC Access" and it should demo both the VNC Wi-Fi access and the VNC Cloud access. No, i am not gonna do such a video, not my job. It's Wolfram marketing department's job :P I also used the Raspberry Pi for logging electronic devices, like a logging multimeter, a logging charger/discharger, or other similar eletronic devices which offer a USB connection (or serial connection) for logging purposes. You can let the Pi do the logging for days and weeks, non-stop! There's logging software for Linux/Raspbian, wonderful stuff. And i don't mind letting the Pi stream music non-stop from a streaming music subscription website, looping an online playlist infinitely. I only need to turn on the speakers and there's music! Of course, the Pi is not a replacement of a full PC. One can watch a youtube or a HD video with VLC media player but you can't do both at the same time. In summary, my personal main uses are: 1) having access to a full local Mathematica installation (granted the Wi-Fi or mobile internet is working), 2) logging electronic devices, 3) 24/7 streaming of music. There is so much more, purposeful things, one could do with a Pi, but as you can see, I keep it simple, basic, boring.
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You mention using your RPi to access Mathematica remotely. But cant that be done just as easily and more effectively by accessing MMA on your PC via remote desktop when you are travelling)? Is there something specific about the RPi implementation of MMA that makes it more accessible for remote work?
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I have found Mathematica essential in production settings for at least 20 years. Most of those were before the Wolfram Engine (and the more recent cloud offereings). I have re-analyzed some of the applications I mention below, and we could have cost-effectively used the Wolfram Engine if it had been available. Stability of the kernel has also dramatically improved. I have used Mathematica in at least three different companies. In a consulting environment, we did all our in-house analyses using Mathematica. Notebooks would call large databases, issue SQL commands, and bring in the data for further processing and visualizations. Most algorithms we needed had to be developed from scratch, and Mathematica made it quick to go from reading a paper or a pencil and paper calculation, to something tested and working on data. The graphics would usually get some tweaking in Illustrator, but would often be close to camera ready. We also used Mathematica to create reference algorithms to be implemented in C++ or Java. Many of these where not numerical algorithms. At my next company we used Mathematica directly as a compute engine. We had developed a very performant cyber security system that identified executing malicious code by observing the stream of system calls. All the machine learning steps were done in Mathematica (this was before the free Wolfram Engine). It allowed us to have version 1 of our system up way faster than if we had implemented them directly. We experienced memory leaks and random hangs that forced us to periodically kill and restart the compute engine, but we were able to engineer it so that those issues remained invisible to the user. Over time, because of costs, we replaced the Mathematica subsystem with Java code. In my current work we still develop most of the algorithms in Mathematica. We are building a system that use Mathematica for some core data generation; reference algorithms are still in Mathematica. We also use it as a thinking tool (see my blog post). Having all that curated data at one's fingertips is great. I feel costs have prevented a wider adoption. Wolfram Research now offers low cost versions for non-commercial applications, which should encourage wider adoption, but I sometimes worry that its market may be shrinking.
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